Sandbaggers

This should be interesting. Speaking from the creamy filling of the M2 pack, I can say things have been pretty fair in our category. A few guys have moved up to M1 already and there's no Neils Albert among those who remain. - kevin

Personally, I'm giving people the benefit of the doubt until after the UCI weekend to sack up. I figure that'll give them time to have the "I'll upgrade if you upgrade" talk with their category podium rival(s).

Mike, that seems to be what is going down in S3/4. Nobody seems to want to try the elite race with the big guns this weekend, so we're going up after that. Calling out sandbaggers seems much more fair for M3 where the jump is not so large to the next category(?)

I agree with Jeff, until there are enough senior riders to have another catagory it will be unbalanced. Us slower riders will just have to work harder! If you look at the senior 1/2 laps time vs the winners in senior 3/4, i wouldn't expect any of them to move up! the guys who moved up from last year are rarely/never ending on the same lap as the winners.

I'm looking more in the M level direction...like, you know, maybe an M3 who wins alot with times of say the M2 race?Hmmm.

The wisest coaches all say, you will not get faster until you race somebody faster than you. I want to downgrade by the way. Is it a curse or a blessing that some of those guys are 10-15 years younger than me? Depends on the day. I can just imagine the attitude I would get if I did that though.

I hear you, I am in my first year of master's age and chose to stick with the seniors.... I am almost regretting it!

no shame in getting lapped by riders of watson etc...  caliber ... c'est la vie!

the extra racing time, the later start and the chance to get whipped silly by the best is well worth riding 1/2 ... even if your license says you aren't supposed to be there.

plus ... no where to go but up!

For me it's like this: you guys are dominating the lowest level category, and that implies it's time for you to both upgrade out of it and challenge yourselves at the next level. That said, the next level for our age category is *missing* and your only option is to go one step higher and race with the fastest guys around. That's not an easy jump to make (nor is it the incremental step it should be) and I understand not wanted to get blown out of the water every week (trust me, I know exactly how that feels).

In a perfect world we'd have an 11:30 start for the seniors and hopefully in a few seasons that'll be the case. In the meantime I guess it's a judgement call. Luckily, you guys aren't dicks and I don't feel bad about losing to you.

So what do people think the 10am Senior start is: Cat 3/4 or the "Beginner's" category? If it's the beginner's category then you guys don't fit really fit that description anymore. If it's 3/4 then sure, keep racing in it until your lap times are up there with the tail end of the 1pm pack.

- Mike

PS. As much as you guys are out my my league these days I obviously need to be bringing my own riding up to your level, so the "stink" I'll raise about sandbaggers starts and ends with an open discussion here. At the end of the day it's just amateur bike racing and we're out there to have a good time. The end.

It's a BEGINNER category.

It was added to the race schedule a few years ago when the switch from two to three start times was made, so as to give newbies a place to race without having to race against people who had raced cross before. Once you've got a bit of experience you shouldn't be in the BEGINNER category.

But it seems there are now a bunch of sandbaggers who don't want to step up their game and race in the category they really belong in. They'd rather deprive the rest of field the opportunity of racing for a win.

From my count there are probably 4-6 "beginners", 3-4 M3's, and 4-5 M2's that should move up. The season is half over.....it's time to man up and do the right thing. Give someone else the chance to earn their upgrade points.

You can be a beginner in terms of skills and experience but still be a fit and fast individual. I don`t think you should necessarily condemn faster beginners ... its a big jump to the next level and this is an opportunity to lead a group, battle for first, feel what it is like to win before your soul gets crushed under the heel of wattychorsox (yes, that is a merging of names from the 1/2 field) or mootchingmot (m1) for the next how many years. Relative to the guys who have been racing cross for years if this is your first year you are most likely still a beginner, even if you do win a handful of beginner races. 

that said, if you want to follow the ''rules'' then simply check out the OCA website for CX.

"ROAD UPGRADE POINTS SYSTEM IS USED FOR CYCLO-CROSS"

 -  The top five riders in each category will receive points (5, 4, 3, 2, 1)

  - Senior 2/3/4 riders require ten points to upgrade

and then there is a bunch of stuff about mixed groups blah blah. unfortunately the road upgrade system has not been changed or adapted to recognize the differences that are present in cross.

but those appear to be the rules. so do with them what you may.

this topic comes up every year, time and again, b/c contrary to road there doesn`t seem to be a mid season deadline for upgrading and perhaps as a result, no one enforces the rules.  

race, enjoy it, get fit and have fun.

I commend the fellow who raced his first cross at Durham, won his Beginner category, then immediately moved up to the S1 group for Turkey X (and he didn't finish last!). As for us women, all this is a moot point. All we can hope for is that the fast gals don't show up for a race giving us slower riders a chance for some glory!! Its all good fun no matter what. Although I would have liked a "Beginner women" category in my first year, the numbers just aren't there. As a result, the goals are incremental for someone like me - not getting lapped for example.

As a alleged 'sandbagger', I can assure the aggrieved that I don't stay in Sr. 3/4 to strip the 'REAL' beginners of their points. I totally agree with the rationale: Having faster riders gives you a wheel to hold, a risky line to follow, a number to chase and makes you a better rider. No question. While this was used to pressure the 'sandbaggers' to upgrade, the argument is just as applicable to the beginners. Having faster riders in the lower category thickens the competition. There are other riders in the 'beginner' field that are more experienced then myself. We should give them some credit, and not patronize their abilities. They need challenges to rise up against, just as much as I do. I think Jeff mentioned it, but word on the street is that the top guys in Sr. 3/4 are jumping up after the UCI weekend anyways, so its only a matter of time before the categories sort them selves out. Remember...its amateur bike racing in Ontario. Its not a big deal.

Well said. I think this is more of a issue for the master's catagories, i don't think it is fair to call anyone a sandbagger in the S3/S4 group. We should all want to be able to upgrade when we are capable.

My two cents on the women's racing is that we should do it like Ottawa. I think you should have an A and B women, and the As can race with the master 2 men, and Bs with the master 3, at the same time. All start together and then results are just separated after the race. It gives you more of a challenge, and more experience racing in a bigger field. And then the B women have a more beginner field to race with that will have more than 2 or 3 people in it.

Also worth considering is our field sizes: someone who routinely places top 3 in a field no larger than 15 is equivalent to someone routinely placing top 20 in a field of 100. Are you suggesting that guy who comes in 20th place every week has no competition and should move up? In other parts of the world 100 starters in a B or C race is common.

Here in Ontario we hold races with what we can, and I think mostly people enjoy it. Having more than one start at all for races that sometimes get less than 75 people between all categories is a luxury, not something to complain about.

How about we all agree that this topic has been beaten to death 3 times over and be thankful that organizers put on races every weekend from september thru to december so that we can have fun in what ever level we choose?

17 comments on the subject might say that some take amateur racing in Ontario a bit more seriously than you think Mark. Years ago we trained hard and couldn't wait to move up to the higher catagories. It didn't matter if we got our A$$ kicked when we got there. It's not up to me to tell you to move up, but I think there might be a few more posts if you guys don't after Toronto now that you said you will.

I'm new here so please forgive the rather basic question: Is moving up a matter of choice or must you earn it?

I'm an M3: 47 and racing CX for the first time in my life. I haven't raced anything else for a decade. Moving up a category and not finishing last would be worth far more to me personally than winning my next M3 race. If I could race M2, I would do so unless it was obvious that I was merely another obstruction/obstacle for the field to repeatedly lap. I feel this way because racing against better riders motivates me to be better.

All this is my personal opinion, of course. Other folks have their own reasons to race where they race, and all I can say is "good luck, have a good race." If you toe the line with me I'm pleased to see you there no matter how fast you are.

(p.s. So far nobody is quaking in their shoes to see me coming! I finished 12th at Valley Park, 13th at Hillbilly Hustle with the flu, and 5th at Durham.)

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Reg Braithwaite
Darkhorse Flyers CC

Ed needs to show up to some races and do a few coffee premes. Possibly launched at lap leaders via some sort of slingshot. Or I suppose passed gently to them after the race would work as well.

I feel a bit for the beg Sr3/4 guys.....tough move up to elite for sure. They have had some decent races and battles this year, a pretty even group up front......enjoy it, everyone should have a chance to ride at the front a win for a bit........then move on when its time.

most of the M cats seem good this year...........although, the person who won both days last year on the UCI M2 weekend is back riding the same class again. Cheers to him, maybe he'll read this and move up for Saturday. I'm a mid packer so its not something that affects my day out. .......... just appears a little unsporting in my opinion............nothing will change and I'm not sure it matters, most of us are racing against the guy/gals that beat us the week before..........It's Masters racing afterall.

cat up = more zzzz's and less laps of lawn rolling on race day..........that was all the motivation I needed to try and move up.

conditions are looking great for this weekend..........TGIF

cheers

Brian Kelly

Reg, Since we all ride the same course the easiest way to see how you would fare is to compare your lap times in M3 to those of riders in M2. You might be surprised. There will be at least one extra lap for you in M2 but a later start. As far as getting passed goes you will get advanced warning of anyone trying to get by you. I get passed a lot and have never felt in the way. The main thing at stake here is your enjoyment. Mike

Let's get one thing striaght, sandbaggers are detrimental to the sport. The top half of the riders in any given category have aspirations of winning a race someday. That's why we train, buy lots of equipment, come out to races, and spend money at the sponsors. If we feel cheated out of that opportunity because guys routinely come out and race in categories below their level, we start to lose interest. Eventually this has an affect on membership and the previously listed benefits of a dedicated racing community. I've seen it before when i ran racquetball tournaments in the 80's (obviously I'm a Master racer ;-). The sport declined because the same guys won every weekend, albeit amongst other reasons, and people eventually got tired of the situation. Who can name a top racquetball club in Toronto?? If you've won, for example, 2 races in a category, it's time to step up and face a new challenge - for your own self esteem and for the sport.

Being a sandbagger rocks!  It shows that a bunch of peeps have noticed your ability to win and are scared of you.  If anything, it makes the target on your back even bigger.  As a small piece of each of your opponents wants to see you fail.  This is why they call you out, trying to make you move up, allowing them the gratitude of seeing you get beat. 

 

The OCA has set the categories and the rules for upgrades.  It is up to the OCA to make the necessary adjustments to make sure the racing is 'fair'.  

 

Gentlemen can upgrade as they may to appease their opponents wishes.  True sandbaggers should be proud of their accomplishements as they have done so within the scope of the rules of the sport...

I have peeked at lap times and average speeds, and so far I would be in the bottom half of M2 but not last. So I have lots of challenges right where I am and lots of challenges if I were allowed to race M2. So I guess everything is fine and dandy in my world, what I need to do is get in shape and move my average speed up a klick or so.

I think that the categories would be fairest if there is a fairly obvious difference in speeds required to win, place, or show at each level. If the performance required to reach the podium is about the same in M3 as it is in M2, something would be amiss.

Taking Durham for example, 17.95 km/hr got Bill Packham into third in M3. Guy Leclair, the winner, was well in front at 18.68 km/hr. But in M2, Hugh Hill needed 19.64 km/hr to get into third, so Guy's M3 speed wouldn't have gotten him onto the podium in M2, he would have been fourth if he had maintained the pace over the longer time period.

So... perhaps if some of the top guys in M3 in that race had moved up others would have gotten onto the podium. But nobody in M3 showed enough speed to get onto the podium in M2. My feeling is that moving those guys up would have oped podium spots, sure, but there is an obvious standard to reach. 18 km/hr would get you onto the podium in M3, 19.6 km/hr in M2. That gives me an idea of where I need to get to regardless of who wins and who moves up.

JM2C... I hope everyone races well this week-end. Good luck!

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Reg Braithwaite
Darkhorse Flyers CC

Waiting until you are fast enough to podium in the next higher category is definitely sandbagging. Moving up a category should put you in the bottom 1/4 of that category. Any higher than that and you've waited too long.